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I bring all this up because today, I read IDW's new SuicideGirls comic, and it is basically the same story, only crazier and with naked girls.Before I get to the plot, though, I have to say that this book is absolutely gorgeous. I imagine it's extremely important when you're doing a book based on a website devoted entirely to naked pictures of pretty girls to get an art team that's capable of drawing pretty girls very well, but even taking that into account, David Hahn and Cameron Stewart knock this thing out of the park.

It's the same with these suicide girls calling me up. Most of them are so young. Crying with their hair wet down in the rain at a public telephone, they call me to the rescue. Curled in a ball alone in bed for days, they call me. Messiah. They call me. Savior. They sniff and choke and tell me what I ask for in every little detail. It's so perfect some nights to hear them in the dark. The girl will just trust me. The phone in my one hand, I can imagine my other hand is her.[10][7][11]

Missy also said the name describes girls who commit "social suicide" by breaking away from societal norms, and created the site "as a place to celebrate beautiful women who choose not to fit into the norm and as a corner of the internet where outsiders could congregate and be appreciated for being themselves".[12]

Ironholds: yeah, but not based on some kind of "culturally neutral" moral grounds So I read the poll on the German WP. If I understood it correctly, its result was basically this: We will not say that *by definition* potentially objectionable material will be unable to appear on the homepage. jps, who decide what is offensive Carbidfischer: we do on occasion In other words, they said, we reserve the right to make case-by-case decisions. Seth_Finkelstein: PICS rules were category-based Am I understanding the result of that poll correctly? i saw a big fight over wikipe-tan (a doll, for the love of god! A doll) Beria - individuals, so individuals should be given the ability to avoid things. Ironholds: we dont build a giant filtering infrastructure on it, generally sgardner: which poll? The last about the filter? No, no -- the one about Vulva on the home page of the German Wikipedia. sgardner: We don't make decissions based upon sensibilities. Beria: anyone who wants to publish a list. You, me, anyone. niabot - really? Then why don't we have pages filled with cuss words? Niabot, yeah, that's what I'm interested in. Carbidfischer: we do, we just call it Images for Deletion ;p niabot: yes, we do I find myself wondering why we don't. Saibo: :Meinungsbilder/Beschränkung_der_Themen_für_den_Artikel_des_Tages niabot, sgardner: we cant, realistically, because there are so many of them Ironholds: dont get me started on commons image deletion policy niabot: we say "we won't have images that demean or ridicule the subject", for example So many potentially offensive topics? jps: And single blacklists are just a simply "deny" category and now because you think wikipe-tan is ofensive i can't see her anymore? ;) no, this is en-wiki, Carbidfischer sgardner - the Japanese Wikipedia made the decision that criminals real life names cannot be printed. Why? Because it conformed to their laws. We should be allowed to give projects the ability to allow for their regional laws to be obeyed. Ottava, they do. Seth_Finkelstein: that is not the usual definition of a category Ironholds: then dont get me started on en.wp ;-) sgardner - then why is Farsi denied a filter? (for those who are not familiar with the vulva story: :Wikipedia_Signpost/2010-03-22/News_and_notes ) The Germans adhere, for example, to the law that requires people to get a fresh start once they've served time in prison for a crime. The German Wikipedia does not publish the names of those people, in deference to German cultural sensibilities. thanks HaeB. jps: I just menat the infrastructure has been discussed for a long time Ottava: Whats that for a conlusion? Ottava: why do they put the images in their articles if it is against their law? sgardner: no sensibilities, the law sgardner - if the German Wikipedia does that, then they "censor" information. So their objection to "censorship" should be flatly ignored based on allowing different cultures to adhere to their laws. Which requires a filter for most of the world. Seth_Finkelstein: I've never seen any discussion of external blocklists before. Where have they been discussed? Carbidfischer: a law built on moral sensibilities. Carbidfischer: probably both, right. Sensibilities result in law. sgardner: We do that to follow the law and keep the project running, not to protect the individuals. Ironholds: that is not the point Ironholds: jinx :-) de-wiki is hosted over here, last time I checked Ironholds, sgardner: we also tend to obey laws that are not built on moral sensibilites a British editor posting to a Virginia server owned by a Florida company is not obliged to obey the german law de-wiki is hosted in the same server farm as the other projects, Ironholds. jps: I'm glad you asked that question :-) and yet, under de-wiki policy, they must I do not think that de-wiki has the right to impose their will upon 1 billion Muslims living in over 45 nations and representing 3 continental regions. sgardner: that is not entirely correct. The German Wikimedia went to court to remain the right to have the name of a victim online So we've been discussing the filter for 30 minutes or so, I want to make sure we don't have any questions left for Sue Ironholds: Read about "Schutzlandprinzip", then it should be clear that we have to follow US-lar (provider) and German law (audience) Ironholds: because, as you may have forgotten, the editor is responsible for what he writes, not the foundation now, there's no legal reason to prohibit them doing so - they're not at threat from lawsuits, and neither are the foundation - so instead the application of the law is based on morality. So I just want to say one thing, and then we can move on to more specific questions about the image filter. Sorry to take up time with this piece of it. I would say that throughout this discussion (the general discussion, not this particular discussion), I have found myself wondering if we have some kind of lack of empathy in our projects. Some kind of failure of imagination. Carbidfischer: hence my example of a german editor ;p jps: See my 2002 paper co-written with an EFF attorney "Blacklisting Bytes" _eff_nrc_paper1.html Ironholds: ... sgardner: if non-Foundation employees were to run an independent, well-designed survey, would the WMF take it into account? basically, if a few members of the community were to sit down and write a survey that tries to ask questions to elicit clear responses from readers and editors and address what many feel are huge shortcomings in the Foundation survey, would the results be paid attention to. Ottava: okay, which laws should Latin Wikipedia abide by? Esperanto? Chinese? Seth_Finkelstein: Thanks. Anything in the context of WMF images? sgardner, failure of imagination? sgardner: in fact, you have a quite big lack of empathy sgardner - I would assume it is the same reason why we have "1000 white penises and 1 black penis" according to the survey of images. We are regionally biased with much of it coming from white European in ethnicity. sgardner: to the point that it looks like the foundation is working against the communities jps: The WMF images argument is a specific case of a very longstanding censorware argument tommorris: I wonder if there would be a change of opinion among many people if we surveyed 100,000 readers and all of them said they wanted a filter. I think it makes sense for us to give warm and friendly consideration to the views of other people -- people whose views we don't share. The Turkish girl in Germany whose mother wears the hijab. The person reading Wikipedia with his aged grandfather. The guy sitting on the train reading Wikipedia in public. Ottava: Maybe to many black penises got deleted? jorm: there might be a change of opinion if the survey had that question. ;-) sgardner: perhaps lack of empathy is not the right word, i think my original notion of lack of professionalism is more accurate people can talk about vulvas and naked pregnant women all day, and those are valid concerns, but the controversial images which have generated the most lengthy discussions are those of Mohammed, and think about it: jorm didn't even propose a category for religious offensive imagery, because most people are frankly baffled by that idea, but external blocklists could solve that completely sgardner: You want all these people to see a clound instead of the reality? Ottava, again with the white penises? srsly? niabot - pornographic images on commons are derived from ethnic European exhitionists. It is a cultural bias and a cultural bias opposed on much of the world. Ottava: We don't support the deletion of such images if they could be used to illustrate a subject by us or other authors. Ottava: I think that --as responsible editorial curators of content-- we have a responsibility to try to imagine those people's sensibilities, and what will be most helpful for them. I think that causing surprise and dismay to people is questionable in terms of its ability to help us fulfill our mission. That's what I'm thinking about. And I think we should be cautious about the limits of our own understanding and knowledge. I think it's dangerous when we think we know what's best for other people. about the religious imagery stuff, why not just a recursive search of Commons for stuff in Category:Muhammed sgardner, I might fit into or close to those people you are talking about. sgardner: who is "we" here? the foundation is not curatoring content, it ist paying for servers sgardner The point has been extensively considered over the years Anyone who has any subjective emotional feeling regarding an image shouldn't have any power over it's existance or not 2ff7e9595c